An Opinion of yours about Wrestling that 75%+ of the board wouldn't share


#201

Get ready for this :fire:

WREATLING IS BIGGER TODAY THAN IT WAS IN THE 90s! It’s the biggest it has ever been!!

  • Wrestling trends on ALl social media and frequently is the #1 trend on Twitter the most commonly used instant news service in the world. Even if people aren’t talking about it directly they are aware of it if on social media.
  • Wrestling still does bigger ratings than most cable programming in an era that features more sources streaming media and tv.
  • The stock is at highs never before scene and TV rights are as high as ever which shows both Wall Street and Advertising values WWE as an institution
  • One of their own has made it bigger than any Wrestler before them in a main stream kind of way and he makes no secrets about his wrestling past and props up the company.
  • legit MMA fighters drawing millions on PPV recognize the industry as a place to go after fighting. It’s not viewed as less than it’s perceived as equal in terms of career choice
  • basis for multiple reality shows and big time docs on ESPN and HBO which are promoted today in ways not possible in the 90s
  • promotions are more viable than before and pushed by more national media companies and there is legitimate money to be made outside of WWE that only existed at the heights of WCW

#202

I’m supposedly a WWE homer but even I can’t…

Doesn’t even come close to HBO shows, CW superhero shows, AMC shows or NBA, NHL, not to mention the juggernaut that’s still the NFL.

If there was social media during the Monday night wars…the numbers would be alot different in terms of wrestlings trending topics as opposed to those I listed.

Wrestling is losing to Love and Hip Hop every Monday nights.

The stock stems from its tv rights and have dropped exponentially when those rights didn’t meet what was expected the last time they negotiated their contract.

Rock became a ubiquitous celebrity in 99.

I love Ronda Rousey but I’m not going to forget her getting steamrolled her last two fights that killed her love for that sport. [quote=“MJfromNJ, post:201, topic:2015”]
basis for multiple reality shows and big time docs on ESPN and HBO which are promoted today in ways not possible in the 90s
[/quote]

ESPN is desperate for content unlike the 90s when they were the only source for sports news. And the guy who did the Andre documentary was a fan…safe to say that wouldn’t happen for anyone else that wrestled past 2000.

Untrue…a handful of guys make 6 figures outside of WWE, there are still alot…ALOT more who are working second jobs and barely scraping by.


#203
  • There was no social media back in the 90’s nor was the internet that prominent. Otherwise both WWF and WCW probably would of been more dominant on there.

  • Of course they do bigger ratings because it is live. RAW, SD and sports will always get higher ratings than almost all programming because most people watch scripted shows on demand, dvr or streaming services at their leisure and not live. The ratings for RAW were almost triple what they are now and MNF asked them to move nights because it hurt them so bad. Also you had two wrestling promotions that were the top 2 in cable ratings by a larger margin when everyone watched all shows live.

  • Nor WWF or WCW were public companies and didn’t offer stocks. TV rights are higher now because of inflation and how valuable live TV is now. Live TV wasn’t near as valuable in the 90s because there were no DVRs, On Demand or streaming serivices. Everybody watched stuff live back then (or recorded on their VCR. Which still counted in ratings)

  • The Rock making it huge in movies means absolutely nothing in how popular wrestling is or the impact on the business. Schwarzenegger was the biggest movie star in the world and no one has ever given a shit about bodybuilding.

  • Ronda really didn’t have that much of a choice. Her career was pretty much over and she couldn’t emotionally take another loss. Shamrock the biggest draw in MMA elected to do wrestling at the time.

  • Tough Enough in 2001 was way bigger than any reality show they could ever do now. Plus all the A&E docs they put on about wrestlers were the highest ratings they ever got and were constantly shown during that time. There was constant wrestling pieces put on network TV ( Jesse Ventua story, Wrestlings biggest secrets revealed, all wrestling panel on Bill Maher). If you put on any story about wrestling it would garner huge ratings.

More promotions are viable because of the internet and the accessibilty to see them. All the promotions in North America and Europe combined today don’t create the revenue WCW did alone in the 90s or create a quarter of the full time jobs WCW did. WCW was paying like a dozen wrestlers 7 figures and well over 100 wrestlers 6 figures. How many wrestlers outside of WWE are making 6 figures a year only working in North American And Europe? Also ECW was also bigger than any promotion in today by a mile. Many of the wrestlers there were making 6 figures.

Ask any wrestling fan over 30 if wrestling was hotter and more relevant now or 20 years ago and I’m almost positive 100% would so 20 years ago. Just about everyone I knew in my middle school watched both WWF and WCW. That’s all anybody talked about in the late 90’s.


#204

Definitely appreciate the responses by @BillyKidmansJorts (great name btw) and @Deezy

As the thread states: this is an opinion that about 75% of the board wouldn’t share.

I think if we are objectively looking at presence in main stream then we can’t argue that Twitter wasn’t around in the 90s. Objectively speaking, wrestling and people in wrestling have more platforms to be seen today which inherently enhances the chance it is “bigger” or more "visible’.

The LIVE TV Market being more valuable today also points to the importance of live properties - WWE is one of those valuable properties. If a property is more valuable today doesn’t that make it inherently important to those audiences than it was in the 90s.

Sure, WWE is not as hot as it was when we were all in middle school and the Monday Night Wars were raging, but we also should recognize we aren’t in middle schools anymore. I wonder if kids are still as into it. Just because our peer groups may have phased out of it does not make it less hot to a younger demographic. That is our bias and assumption, do any of us know for a fact 10-15 year olds aren’t as into Roman and Cena as we were Austin and Rock. Business certainly suggests they are in terms of dollars and sales. But I guess the answer to that is “inflation” (?)

That independent promotions have viable business models also suggests to me the stability and staying power the industry has found - as well as global presence - that did not exist in this so called heyday. It took Turner spending negligent amounts of money to get guys paid in that period, and it resulted in a defunct product. That guys now have avenues to make money in viable and sustainable ways is more impressive to me than a conglomerate dumping money into something to prop it up in importance. It didn’t work out for Turner did it? Heyman? Citing bigger promotions who flamed out because of horrid business models and practices does not suggest something was bigger - it suggests people were willing to back it in ways that proved to be failures. We mock TNA/Impact/Anthem for being this way in the late 2000s, but celebrate the companies that did it before them - ironic. And of course there is always a large portion of guys working two jobs and part-time indy workers, etc. That is the nature of any industry but if there is a path to sustainable success for guys that did not exist in the past, isn’t that an improvement over the past?

This is not a debate thread, but I view the rise of guys like Rock, Cena, Batista in mainstream roles outside of Wrestling as an indictment of just how popular they were or are because of wrestling - studios and morning shows are fully aware that having them bring eyeballs that may not otherwise tune in.
Rock has obviously transcended all of that but I still think NBC loves booking John Cena on its shows because they know he is bringing an audience with him. For me, that has to speak to how wrestling is viewed in the current media landscape. The fact we all don’t love booking direction does not diminish the fact that as an industry and vehicle there are elements of it that are more important to audiences outside the common internet fan. But what is value?

I guess the definition of what “big” or “mainstream” or “important” or “valuable” is provides different ways to slice this and analyze the take:fire:


#205

I was present at both wrestle kingdom 2016 and 2017 and loved the unique atmosphere and some of the matches (especially Kenny Omega). But I thought the 6 star match with Kenny and Okada was waaaaaaaaaaay too long and just full of spots for spot’s sake with very little story behind it. It was actually so dull toward the end that I wanted to leave early. Jet lag could have played a role I thought at the time, but upon rewatching afterward I still have the same view. It was good, they obviously worked hard and I did enjoy it but no better than matches that have happened in NXT and WWE (Ie this year’s royal rumble which had great storytelling for it’s participants, Brock v Cena at summerslam a couple of years ago which featured a much more bold change in direction and did a lot less but carried it out flawlessly, Ciampa vs Gargano etc, the list goes on). The stuff Omega had done previously with more actual character stuff was great and really helped set his matches apart from the rest in such a relentless block of wrestling as WK. I hate that this seemed to have gone by the wayside in that particular match which to me was massively lacking in his usual swagger.

I am not totally blinded by my boredom and sores from those cramped, uncomfortable Tokyo Dome chairs however and do realise I was probably the only person in the arena feeling this way. Again, love the participants and the promotion, was just bored by the length of the match on top of everything else. There’s something to be said to me when it comes to decisive finishes that don’t feel the need for all of the false finishes and people kicking out of finishers which makes it hard for me to take them seriously especially when one guy’s finisher is just a clothesline. (Doesn’t matter how hard you hit it, or how stiff it is, a clothesline is always just a clothesline to me. I find them hard to buy as a legit finish which may have played into my malaise toward this match) I have also been totally spoilt by ECW and WWE from the year 2000 in a way that table spots and top rope dragon suplexes just aren’t as impressive to me as they should be (give me RVD v Jerry Lynn any day of the week).

Tacked onto that, I don’t understand why mania gets hammered for it’s length, but WK gets off scot free. I obviously understand you’re getting much better matches on average in WK which does help but it just gets to be too much after about the third match with no breaks or gaga. At least you get variety of things to see at wrestlemania and breaks within it. Wrestle kingdom is a great experience which I really enjoyed and fully recommend to anyone, however it is absolutely relentless to watch 6+ hours of straight wrestling matches live no matter how good they are with no mindless bullshit to break it up or time to just let anything sink in. (Especially when you might not be able to get to the toilet through most if it without a lengthy wait!)

New Year’s Dash however, now that’s a different story. Hella matches, hella quality, half as long. That card itself was 6 stars to me in 2017!


#206

My opinion is out of step with most Aussie wrestling fans… I don’t connect with Robbie Eagles, esp the sniper stuff he puts on…


#207

#7

One of the main reasons people have said 205 Live has not caught on is that guys on the main roster can do those moves that you might see from the Cruiserweights. The two predominant main rosters guys cited in this are Rollins and Styles. Well, I’m not sure those are great examples as both of those guys would have a good shot at making 205 if need be (12 and 13lbs over). Now if someone were to make the argument that there’s 205ish guys on the main roster already doing great (Rollins, Styles, Balor), that makes some sense.

I just don’t quite buy the general ‘the main roster can do the same moves as the 205 Live guys’. I think the Cruiserweight Classic showed they have more to offer and I would use this as one of the reasons it’s not catching on: it’s been held back. Since there’s usually around 2 matches on each show, let them go out and show what they can show. True, if they wrestle like the main roster it’s not going to work. (Also I agree with others that have said this that it would do wonders at Full Sail. People are sheep in general. You have to tell them what to like. I completely enjoyed the first two Creed albums. I don’t look for someone to tell me to like or dislike them, but many people look to others for ‘what’s popular or cool’. In wrestling, people at home will jump on board if the crowd in the arena are engaged and having a blast).

In a (Shinsuke) nutshell, I think the Cruiserweights can do more flashy, flying, exciting type of moves when compared to the main roster.


#208

Nobody cares about cruiserweights because they have no personality or charisma.

There’s a reason why people were thanking Neville when he attacked all the divisions biggest contenders and only watched when an alleged rapist was talking nonsense for 15 minutes a show


#209

Every time I have watched ROH I have found it incredibly boring and a chore to sit through. I don’t know why anyone would watch it over WWE, Impact, Lucha Underground or NJPW. It offers nothing you can’t get from any of these other promotions.


#210

Former NFL players are great athletes, but are more than likely generic, horrible wrestlers.


#211

not sure you’d get 75%+ against that with ‘NFL’ in there, are you willing to go former ‘college’ football players are great athletes, but are more than likely generic, horrible wrestlers?


#212

No, I stick by what I say. A lot of them make good to great “sports entertainers”, but as far as wrestling goes they are still horrible and generic. Every time I hear that a wrestler played pro-football I immediately roll my eyes.


#213

Yeah, I’m saying you might not get many people to disagree with you on that if your criteria is ‘NFL’.


#214

I don’t disagree. I subscribed to Honor Club for the year. Mostly to get Super Card (fail) and to have shows to watch on random nights when they tour and stream (like this past WOTW shows). While I find they have the ability to pull off a quality main event, I do get bored by the Shane Taylor’s and Silas Young’s of the world. At this point I catch the Elite matches and enjoy the stuff with Dalton and Kingdom


#215

I have always found Terry Funk to be unbearable. All of his segments he did in the WWF and WCW were awful and you could tell the audience weren’t into it.

This is a bold statement but from watching “Keep it 2000” he was one of the worst parts of WCW 2000.


#216

This is (somewhat) true, as long as you’re just paying attention to that time period in his career. I have a TON of love for NWA Funk.


#217

Wrestlemania 9 is the best Wrestlemania for an 8-year old to watch.


#218

MITB cash ins have hugely contributed to the decline in prestige of world titles. It feeds off of the idea that giving any random fucker the world title will automatically make them a big deal when in reality it’s more likely to expose the fact they’re not ready to be a main eventer. Especially if it’s their first world title. The wrestler makes the title, not the other way round. Not understanding this is the same reason they thought having Jinder win it out of nowhere would automatically make him a big deal. Same thing when Sheamus became champion right off the bat.

It also leads to complications when you don’t have things planned out but need to get the cash in out the way (like Carmella right now). The cash in is an exciting moment but once you realise who the champion is, the cash in either comes across as a lazy way to generate excitement or a lazy way to skip actually building someone into a main eventer.


#219

To add to the MITB cash in point, I think it’s creation immediately hurt the business because every single company out there stole that idea and has driven it into the ground.


#220

#8

You’re gonna read this and have never thought of this idea before (thus the 75%+), but I encourage you to go back to ANY match this applies to and tell me you’re not hoping on this bandwagon :sunglasses:

The worst counter of pinfalls is EARL Hebner. Holy hell. He literally kicks out at 2.8 himself. He convulses his body in some ridiculous manner that looks absolutely redonkulous. Check out any Kurt Angle match. Hebner kicks out well before Angle every time. Gail Kim/Awesome Kong? Hebner kicked out so violently he broke up the actual pinfall. Earl, go watch Darrick Moore and see how it’s done!