I'm seriously losing interest in WWE

Last year around this time was just as dull, and ratings were just as bad. But then Joe won the #1 contendership, and faced Lesnar. That feud sent a jolt to ratings, and then the Roman/Joe/Braun/Lesnar program really got the ratings going and they’ve been holding steady ever since until recently.

The problem is I dont see them running with Rollins or Braun to go with Lesnar for the Summer, if they did I think we’d see the same spike in interest/ratings. As someone who had previously defended Lesnar having the title, I think his absence from Mania til Summerslam is crippling the product, and he needs to drop it ASAP.

In terms of this thread, I’m definitely losing some interest in Raw, which is a chore to get through at times even when its good because of the 3 hours. I think Smackdown has been good, and NXT has been on fire, so I’m definitely sitll interested in non-Raw things at the moment.

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Breaking down a normal WWE television week:

  • Monday Nights
  • Raw (3hrs 15mins)
  • Tuesday Nights
  • Smackdown Live (2hrs)
  • 205 Live (~ 1hr)
  • Total Bella’s (1hr)
  • Wednesday Nights
  • NXT (~ 1hr)
  • Thursday Nights
  • Main Event (~ 1hr)
  • Friday Nights
  • This Week In WWE (~ 30mins)
    Non PPV week = ~ 9hrs & 45mins.

But if this was a Takeover/PPV weekend:

  • Saturday Night
  • Takeover Kickoff (1hr)
  • Takeover (~ 3hrs)
  • Takeover Fallout “Triple H on Facebook” (~ 15min)
  • Sunday Nights
  • PPV Kickoff (1hr)
  • PPV (4hrs)
  • PPV Fallout “Raw Talk / Talking Smack” (~ 30mins)
    Total Extra = ~ 9hrs & 45mins

So the total for “Money In The Bank” week would be ~ 19hrs & 30mins.

That’s the equivalent of two and a half paid shifts at work for me. Who has about 10hrs free just for WWE every week & about 20hrs free during a Takeover/PPV weekend?

Wow this is such a false statement it’s not even funny. For wrestling you can make the argument but any genre of entertainment? Holy hell you could not be anymore wrong.

You shitting me? If you were a band promoter, who’d you rather have…Slayer or Metallica? I’m sure the promoters of these two know who they’d want.

You think all the tv shows with loyal fanbases would trade them in a second to get their shows uncancelled?

My favourite show the past 2-3 years was Ash vs Evil Dead and it got cancelled because me and the few people who loved the show weren’t enough. But a Walking Dead will continue no matter how poor the quality of the show has been the past 3 years.

You want the off Broadway play or Hamilton?

You want the movie that got all the awards or the Marvel blockbuster?

Just stop…everyone and I mean everyone who rely on ticket sales, ad revenue and merch moved want the casual audiences to embrace them so they can make all the money…anyone telling you else is lying or a nut.

Now you’re just going off on a tangent that had nothing to do with my point so i guess it’s time for me to do the same.

Your statement was incorrect or just too broad. More than likely the latter. But if you think hardcore fans aren’t as important as you think they are, you’re completely out of your mind or in your words “a nut”.

Here’s an example for you. The Yakuza series eventually stopped being ported to the west because it was badly published. Because of this, it was the hardcore fans that continuously asked SEGA to begin porting the games to the west again. SEGA eventually caved in and ported Yakuza 5 to the west. Hardcore fans knew that this was going to sell badly so they took it upon themselves to promote it as much as they could and the sales ended up doing better than they expected.

So they then decided to port Yakuza 0 to the west. Because of the good sales of the previously ported game, they decided to put more support behind it because of the hardcore fanbase. It was because of this that the game ended up doing even better because of the word of mouth, casual fans began to start playing the games and it grew from there. If it was not for the hardcore fanbase of the series, the series would have never of attracted the attention of the casual fans. If that hardcore fanbase for Yakuza did not exist, it’d still be in Japan with almost no interest in ever going to the west and making the money they do now.

Basically what i’m trying to explain to you is that saying Hardcore fans don’t keep anything afloat in entertainment is nonsense especially for things that are niche because of the power of word of mouth and their willingness to support it and how vocal they are whether they may be the majority of the vocal minority, it has greatly helped in the Video Game, Anime and Movie Industry for series’ or brands.

If it was not for hardcore fans, the persona franchise would not be where it is today. Were it not for hardcore fans, Nier Automata would only do half as well as it did. Some things that were seemingly dead were revived because of the support from the hardcore fanbase. Fate/Grand Order which is Gacha was based solely in Japan and they had no intentions of porting it but because of hardcore fans continuously asking for it’s release and showing their incredibly high support, it got ported to the US. And they’re making millions because of it. And no one would have known what the hell the game was if it weren’t for word of mouth. The life fuel for the Fighting Game Genre is based ENTIRELY on the hardcore fanbase thanks to EVO, Combo Breaker, Capcom Cup, etc.

I could go on and on and on, but I think my point is abundantly clear.

Games that were popular in Japan is your big rebuttal?

Something that was popular in another country is supposed to be supported by hardcore fans? More like something became popular enough you can export it to different countries.

Oh wow…expansion…something that can’t be done because of a hardcore fanbase.

Way to make my point for me. If that Yakuza game bombed in Japan. …they weren’t going to make another because “some people stateside liked it”.

You only read one paragraph didn’t you…Are you that arrogant? Don’t answer that. I’ve seen your posts elsewhere in this forum and I should have known better than to expect you of all people to actually look outside their contrarian bubble for a minute. My bad.

Nevermind the fact that you entirely ignored my point on fighting games which survives entirely on hardcore fans. Nevermind the point where the persona series was dying and the hardcore fans in the west helped it bloom life. Nevermind the point that very niche series’ were helped because of hardcore fans.

Just admit your point was too broad. Yes i realise that in some areas/genres of the entertainment industry, hardcore fans not contributing don’t matter (Although they do actually still matter because even if they hate on something, that can either help via feedback or word of mouth and indirectly causing it to grow). But you don’t know what you’re talking about. And that’s fine. No one is expecting you to know every area of the entertainment industry until you start making broad, silly points like that which you’re failing to back up other than making blind assumptions.

Here’s another example…Devil May Cry is a nice little example, don’t you think?

They made it a point to entirely ignore the hardcore fanbase in 2010-2012. The hardcore fans voiced their displeasure with the design change and the reboot of the series. What did Capcom and Ninja Theory do? They pulled the same thing the WWE did. Ignore/mock that section of the audience.

So when the game came out, guess what happened? It ended up doing worse than their expected sales, played nothing like a DMC game (Though it actually was pretty good) and a bad word of mouth began to spread around about the game. And why did that happen? Because they completely ignored the hardcore fanbase and that caused them to not buy the game, literally shaving one third of the game’s sales and potentially more because of bad word of mouth.

It’s because of this that they’re now backtracking and trying to re-release old DMC games and almost never mentioning the reboot. Had they continued as they were, that series would have died a death.

Here’s yet another example. Metal Gear Survive infuriated a lot of hardcore fans of the Metal Gear series. Almost every hardcore fan refused to buy the game because of circumstances surrounding it. What happened? Only casual fans bought it. The sales are probably the worst selling Metal Gear games in the history of Metal Gear. And now the Metal Gear series is in jeopardy of never coming back again due to it’s low selling numbers and high controversy surrounding it.

But hardcore fans don’t matter right? lol this is what happens when you make points on something you have no idea about. You make yourself look entirely foolish.

Your entire point was Japanese import games.

I named one game and you’re assuming I just read one paragraph…and I’m the arrogant one. Going to insult my character also, way to prove your point buddy.

Console games outside of the major titles all suffered this console gen. The bubble burst and alot of games hardcores loved have bankrupt studios…hardcores didn’t save them.

First page of Google told me more about the failures than anything you listed.

And my point was too broad, gave you different genres of entertainment and you focused on one and still proved my point for me.

You used your “expert opinion” on video games and still proved my point…but you can keep cherry picking outliers, people who don’t know what strawmen do, might buy your BS.

I am not even going to bother reading the rest of your comment. You spent 10 minutes typing and reading my entire argument and THAT is what you took away from it…Devil May Cry Reboot and Metal Gear Survive aren’t even imported…You truly have no clue what you’re talking about.

I think i’m done here and my point to people with common sense has been made clear. And it’s also been made very clear that not only are you biased and arrogant, but you also seem to not know what you’re talking about whatsoever.

I don’t think there’s anymore to discuss here, have a nice day.

Japanese video games…sorry I’m not an expert in that. So many of those around :roll_eyes:

Gave you a large spectrum of entertainment…yet focus solely on shit that’s so obtuse and imported outside of I guess metal gear and devil may cry…two games I never heard of.

Zero counterpoints for the other examples I gave, using outliers for things no one knows outside of a gaming forum knows about.

Yeah, ok pal…I could easily do the same for esoteric subgenres too. Kept my point broad because it’s easier to understand…not my fault you can’t grasp the obvious.

I don’t know how the hell you got back into wrestling in 2011

CM Punk’s “Pipebomb” promo. It made me feel the same way that Stone Cold did back in the late 90’s. There’s just that certain feeling of something special going on, and yeah the Summer of Punk didn’t go as well as I wanted (After MitB 2011), but it segued into the rise of Daniel Bryan. I think my fandom has been coasting on those 2 specific events, with a lot of good stuff in between that I liked (The Shield, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe). I guess you can say I came back for Punk, stayed for Bryan, started to lapse a little bit but the WWE had some interesting stuff going on.

Right now I feel nothing for the WWE product, while my love for the Indy’s and NJPW has only increased. I hope that DB leaves when his contract is up, he deserves better.

Right now the only thing Pro Wrestling related I am paying for is being a POSTWrestling and SNME Patron.

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Punk’s pipebomb promo even for fans that were watching was like that scene in Shawshank Redemption where all of the jail yard stands still to listen to the music.

The problem with Summer of Punk was Summerslam. I saw an interview with Punk from that fall where the person was complaining about Punk coming back so soon and his response made a lot of sense. He was like sure, that would have been great, but the hottest act in the company can’t miss the second biggest PPV of the year. Post network Era that angle could have worked better, but back then it was still a PPV driven era.

I’m in the same boat. Between YouTube and other streaming services (albeit not as high quality as the Network) I’ve been watching everything but the main product. It’s formulaic and doesn’t feel like you’re getting anything in return for your time. I’ve been following NXT and NJPW, as well as Stardom. There are also so many great Indies (Beyond Wrestling, Chikara, MLW, GCW).

Week is extra rough recently.

I’d place a lot of the blame on the 8000 hours of tv every week.

Personally, i put the blame on the fans, especially does like us that like to be arm chair quarterback and critics every single move they make. The fact is, We don’t know what we want most of the time, We want Bobby Roode to be a heel, yet when he was doing the exact thing in NXT, everybody was cheering for him which made him a automatic babyface so when it was his time to get called up, they just put him in that babyface role because he was a failure as a heel.

And this happened a lot with The more hardcore wrestling fans, they don’t react the same way normal wrestling fans do, they react bases on who they know and respect instead of what the characters are which would cause anybody in charge of a major wrestling company problem to book bases on what fans want. So they play it safe and book bases on what sales and which who they can make money with which is way easier that trying to understand us fans since we are so unstable that you can make long term plans with us.

The product suffers because of this in my opinion, The fans especially us smart fans think we know better then them and we are more important then the wrestlers in the ring which makes for some horrible show on tv and makes it harder for creative to actually have something good for a show. But i don’t want to put the blame solely on us, Creative need to found a way to make the Shows especially Raw feel less like a chores, i feel if you could have a good mix between comedy segments and serious matches it would help Raw feel less like a chores every week.

For example, the last 2 weeks of Raw, my favorites segments we’re the BBQ segment, The tag team battle royal and the curt hawkins match, Reason being, they we’re the only segments that actually weren’t taking themselves seriously and we’re just plain comedy instead of being long 2 or 3 segments matches that will bored any regular wrestling fans. WWE as never being a wrestling company and never will, it’s a entertainment company and they need to back to what made them what they we’re in the 80’s and 90’s especially if they to continue with this Pg Era stuff. I’m not saying create over the top characters but i’m saying just Stop creating generic wrestlers that all look and sound the same. Stop being what you never we’re. stop trying to be a wrestling company and go back to being a sports entertainment company.

Don’t be scared to use enhancement matches on Raw, they have enough time on that show to do it and you can advance a feud with thoses matches as well by shooting a angle during or after the match. Also it help the lower card wrestler to a) actually look like a superstar, and b) look credible when face with a higher ranked superstar. That how they would do it back in the day and that’s why Koko B. Ware was as popular as he was even if he was a glorified jobber.

In the end, WWE is boring for so many reason right now. We all have a part in what’S happening right because we accepted what they we’re doing. The only way something will change is if the hardcore base decided to stop going to tv tapings and PPV because right now they know that no matter what they do, they we will show up so it doesn’t matter to them and will go and create a family friendly product that regular fans will like and we are still going to bitch and moan about how bad the product is or how boring the product is nothing will change because they will still be making a ton of money of that boring product that we hate and they will take it as a sign that they don’T need to change anything.

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As long as you don’t watch it live and you can skip bad wrestling moments, it’s bearable.

Victim blaming…

In an endeavor like WWE, the fans are never wrong. An isolated group of fans can be wrong (i.e. chanting for Enzo, the jagoffs at Raw after Mania) but the “the WWE Universe” as a whole cannot be wrong, or at least, very rarely can be wrong. For example, if somebody who is supposed to be getting booed or cheered is consistently getting the opposite reaction or no reaction at all, it’s up to the creative and the performer to adapt. Do something to change the reaction or do something to change the character.

All of WWE is essentially a TV show. Like any show, there can be “episodes” or certain creative decisions that the fans don’t love, but in the long-term, if the on-screen product consistently fails to pay off in a way that satisfies the majority of the fan base, that fan base is going to shrink.

One of the favored counter-arguments to fan frustration is the rising stock price, rising profits and, recently, the new, huge TV deals on the horizon for Raw and Smackdown. And I understand these arguments from WWE’s perspective. But as a fan, I also don’t have to give shit about their profits for the same reason that I don’t have to think that Avatar is a good movie just because it made a billion dollars. Ultimately, WWE is going to do whatever it thinks is best, and it’s way more likely that I’ll stop watching (or severely cut back on watching) than that they’ll change to the product that I want. And if my singular fandom is representative of a large portion of fans, maybe that enacts change. And if my fandom is representative of nothing, then it won’t. But that’s what being a fan is. I have a stupid investment in what the people pretending to fight do on my TV screen, and as long as I’m not being overly disruptive, disrespectful or irrational about it, I have a right to voice those opinions in the crowd, on the Internet, with my money and with my TV viewing habits.

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You brought up a good point but at the same time, what do you do if a guy doesn’t get the reaction you want but yet merchandise figures tells another story. Do you risk losing all that merch money to please a part of your audience or do you keep the course? That’s what WWE is face with on a regular bases. WWE is more of a entertainment company then anything else now. that’s what they are selling and it’s seem to work since they are making more money then ever before and that’s not just with some of the business deal they have made and sponsors but also from fans buying tickets and merchandise. So while, we might not like the product right now and it’s true that the product sucks right now but we are still going to show up everytime they come to town for a tv taping or a network special because we like to complain about the WWE and we like to play armchair quarterback. That’s the role of a WWE fans especially the smart section of the universe.

I wrote that earlier in that thread but WWE can’t really go on how fans react to certain characters anymore because every fans reacts differently in every market. Reigns might get overly hated in a smart market like chicago, St Louis or New york but get cheered in Houston. he might get booed on Tv but at live events fans love him. So how can you adapted the product to the fans reaction when the fans reaction change everytime depending on the situation? so you just play it safe and that give you the boring product you have right now because they can’t push the envelops anymore since they are a publicly traded company and while i would love to see them return to what they did in the 80’s and early 90’s, it wouldn’t work either because it would be look at as to cheesy. So in the end, since they really can’t take any risk anymore, they will do what’s best for business and right now, it’s putting on this safe product that’s not going to get them into trouble and will make them a tone of money in the process. We might not care about the business side of WWE but if it wasn’t for that side, we wouldn’t have a WWE to complain about on a regular bases.