Keith Lee,big boy 2020 Rumble.

Brock sold this guy as an absolute unit last year and here we are a year later and I care about him as much as I care about um let’s say Rick O Shea.

Pretty much. I figure they have Orton toss him out in the Rumble, setting up another two months of Orton vs. Lee on RAW and culminating in Orton beating Lee at Wrestlemania. Lee then joins the 24/7 squad.

Next year he will be referencing Drew Barrymore movies from the early-2000s - just the WWE/NXT circle of life

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I just don’t understand how WWE expects anyone to get over.

Think Keith Lee would be a top guy if shows had fans?

I can’t help but feel that without a crowd to react the only view that matters in WWE right now is Vince’s.

I think this is spot on. How does a writer or wrestler tell Vince he’s wrong and they are right. The crowd was the one element that could do it (not that he would necessarily listen) and right now it just doesn’t exist.

Historically WWE has always had the philosophy of making their top top guys looks great, and the rest doesn’t really matter that much. They did it in the 80’s with Hogan, Warrior, and Savage, the early 90’s with Bret, Shawn, Diesel and Taker, the attitude era with Austin, Rock, and Hunter, and fast forward to present day with Reigns and Drew (Who have been booked great this past year). Considering they are making more money then they ever have in history, it’s going to be very hard to get Vince to change now.

For the record, I think they should book these up an comers better, but I just dont see anything changing unless Hunter takes over creative.

I don’t think that is true. I think he needs to have a half decent character to get the crowd behind him. Guys need to come across as cool to get over and recent call ups just haven’t.

He appeals to the “hardcore” wrestling facebase well enough. He was a top guy on the indies and really gained steam again prior to the pandemic.

With that being said, how he would’ve done with a crowd is yet to be known. Rumble is a great suprise moment reaction, but I think there still would be enough of a fanbase in a Raw crowd to draw enough of a chain reaction to get Vince’s attention on him. Where that would have led to is unknown. Remember AJ Styles wasn’t booked too hot to start things out either.

Daniel Bryan is a good case of a guy that didn’t have a captivating character, was great in the ring and got over, really over.

Since Daniel Bryan, it seems they keep squashing babyface in a misguided attempt to get them over. But it has only worked the one time, and it worked in spite of their booking.
And we all know Vince does not listen to crowds, or anyone else. See john Cena, Roman Reigns, Brock Lesnar, Charlotte Flair, etc. For evidence

Which is strange because his two biggest stars in the last 25-30 years were made by him listening to fans.

It honestly feels like Vince picks what he wants to be his top acts, puts them in with fan favorites, has them go over thinking that makes fans view his picks in a higher light when it just does tye complete opposite.

Or maybe your right and they’ve tried to recapture lightning in a bottle so many times that rather than fans reacting to a wrestler they want to see do more, they just boo the stuff that they think sucks and chalk it up to Vince being Vince.

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Agreed with the first second section, disagree with the second.

Saying Vince definitively listens to crowds, or definitively doesn’t listen to crowds are both wrong. He listens at times (ie. Austin, Bryan, Becky), but in other instances when he thinks he’s right, he doesn’t (ie. Roman). I think its situational and depends.

Cena is a tough one, I get that most adult men didn’t like him, especially the internet fans, but all reports have shown that he sold merch like nobody else, so with him I get it despite my personal feelings. According to Sportskeeda he’s the highest selling wrestler of all time. There is a reason why WWE despite often shitty creative is the most successful wrestling promotion of all time.

Charlotte and Brock are more of an Internet Fan issue, IMO they are both over with the mainstream audience. I wish both took a step back at times, but I dont view them the same way I viewed Roman pre heel turn.

Yeah, we aren’t aware of sales figures and demographic breakdowns. I’m sure there has been business reasons behind some decisions. But, at the same time, business has been declining for years

Well, to be fair ratings have been declining, business as a whole is doing better then ever. Regardless, I don’t disagree with what I think your main point is. No doubt that Vince makes decisions all the time based on what he personally wants to see vs what is best for the product. Retribution is not good for the product, Ricochet jobbing is not good for the product, unrealistic dialog is not good for the product etc. etc. etc.

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To be fair Ricochet jobbing could be good for the product as athletic guys can make others look great. The problem is with him jobbing to what amount to other Jobbers at this point…

Fair, probably a poor choice of words. I should have said, the underutilization of Ricochet.


I would go with mis-utilization. He is being used wrong. At this point (in WWE) I think his best role is kind of an upper mid card enhancement guy. Have him put on entertaining matches, give him a mid card title from time to time, heat him up for an occasional TV title challenge to make your top guy or challenger look great. I don’t think he talks well enough to be the top guy, maybe with a manager but I think that is a tough sell as the top guy at his size.


Exactly! He could be used to make a heel look credible before they challenge for the heavyweight belt, he can have great matches with anyone. But that means he needs to win against mid card (and lower) guys

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