I certainly voiced criticism a few weeks ago but to Stan for AEW as a Mark:
Dark has 300k views which is >40% of the Dynamite viewership
The highlight clips for the episode of AEW which range from 3 to 5 min have views between 130-450K view in a day. The Inner Circle/Pinnacle video is 4 min long and has 480k views.
What’s the live number telling us? Same goes for WWE if you want to buy into what the other Kahn is saying.
Well, I don’t buy into it much. Or at least find them to be like objects to compare without more context.
The two important things with it that we don’t know:
How many people are actually watching through the entire show? (Youtube counts starts, TV counts viewership over the entire period) With something as long as Dark, I can’t believe that entire 300K are making it to the end.
Are they reaching new viewers with any of these videos? (They might know, but it would take an extensive surveying arm to the company; that we at least know WWE has, though they don’t make results public to my knowledge) I’d argue Dynamite clips have a better shot at being sampled by casuals than niche shows. I don’t know what the “breakthrough” starts WWE uses to believe there are new viewers (though they’re probably adding in free Network views, Twitter, Facebook, etc, that is an incredibly wide net for them at this point; if AEW is matching it, then yeah, I guess it’s at least a similar argument. It’s just a far more unknown territory for us fans than even TV ratings.
And I’ll just say, because I think I edited it out on my original post - I certainly don’t think AEW is struggling or wounded or whatever ratings-wise. We need far more evidence of that. I’m just focusing on why this well-received program isn’t “growing” at the moment, which makes these little dips more concerning to people.
This is what I look at with AEW…
I wanted an alternative to WWE. When I say alternative, I mean a good fucking show. I remember a time when I used to look forward to Monday Night Raw all day and I was pumped heading into the show. It was a great feeling to be a wrestling fan, because I knew I was going to get an entertaining show. In 2021, I come home from work in the morning and I put on Raw, Smackdown or NXT and 3/4 of the show is skipped. Even though I like NXT, that is included, because it just feels too similar.
With AEW, I look forward to it, like I used to with Raw and it holds me. It entertains me. It makes me laugh and then the show ends and I am left feeling “holy shit, that was a great show. I fucking love being a wrestling fan.”
Is AEW perfect? No, definitely not. I think there could be a lot better of a flow between their 3 shows. I think sometimes things happen(Scorpio Sky heel turn for example) and they arent followed up on very strong. I think they need to be VERY careful with which WWE guys they bring in next. No more older guys.
There are more issues I have, but the fact that I come away entertained, outweighs that. I believe in this company, because they’ve shown me they know what they are doing. I see a group of young guys, that I think have a bright future. I see the WWE guys they’ve brought it and some may have bad gimmicks(Rusev), but he’s been kept strong and seems to be going away from that gimmick. I see a Matt Hardy who is more of a manager than wrestler and I think that is a good thing. Christian brings a different style, even though I wasnt a fan of the style, he can help the younger guys.
I just think in 2021, wrestling fans are idiots and picky. It isnt that serious as people make it out to be.
The last line sums it up well, except we aren’t idiots we are STUPID IDIOTS
AEW is never going to drop below its core 500 - 600k fans, whatever it does. It has no mainstream stars to break way about 1 million. There’s only one potential mainstream star there that I can see, depends how they use him
The other issue with YouTube is it counts views not viewers. If I watch dark broken up into 3 different sittings I’m pretty sure I get counted 3 times.
AEW is the only show I’m following right now on a regular basis so I would say overall I enjoy it. But Hardy being a manager hasn’t been a good thing as he isn’t getting this “clients” over the storyline is about him. Further he has actually been in ring a ton. He isn’t Taz, Jake, Tully, or Arn he is closer to Jericho a mouth piece faction leader than he is to a manager (he has worked one more match than Jericho in 2021). Private Party is not in a better place than when the joined up, nor are Butcher and the Blade. I guess maybe the Bunny is because she is actually wrestling. Now maybe this will go somewhere good and end well but right now it just seems to be about Hardy. He had the big match against Hangman, lost but is getting by more airtime out of it than Hangman.
So while I like the show I do have issues with how they use some people.
All of this.
I said it two years ago, probably on this board somewhere, that all I really wanted was a promotion that rewarded it’s viewers for watching and paying attention, rather than looking down at its viewers for it.
I wanted a promotion that’s creative process wasn’t dominated by the same minds who have created wrestling TV for the last forty years.
I wanted a big time “TV Arena Wrestling” promotion that didn’t have the baggage that comes with WWE. And one that wasn’t filtered through Vince McMahon.
AEW at this point in their history reminds me of what being a fan of WWF was in 96/97. They’re growing. They’re throwing lots of stuff at the wall, and seeing what sticks. They have a tremendously talented group of main event players, and a roster loaded with stars of tomorrow, ready to go and blow up. And they’re doing it in the shadow of a mega corporate billion dollar monolith of a promotion.
Watching AEW is fun. It’s never a chore. I actually look forward to it. Much like many people on this board.
It’s growing and learning as a promotion every week.
Totally agree on the Hardy stuff, it’s not working. He shouldn’t be wrestling at all or get this much screen time.
Another thing to me that really isn’t working is the Bucks. Their storylines are way too complicated than they need to be. The FTR build was a mess but was saved by a great match. I don’t see the same happening with whatever is happening with Anderson and Gallows.
I can’t even tell you what is going on in that story. Neither guy can really act and they seem to be portrayed as tough guys a lot. I just want the cocky Bucks super kicking people and being dicks.
All the talk about AEW feeling WWE makes me want to point out how much RAW feels like TNA. They’re running a main event of Lashley vs Drew, which happened in TNA years ago. MVP and Lashley was also a thing TNA started. RAW also has Styles, Joe Hardy, Ryker and Morrison - all who have had significant roles in TNA. You can totally tell Jarrett has his hands on RAW somehow
I agree with the majority of this, however I do disagree with a couple little things.
I think Christian has been an awful addition, but I I’ve already spoken about that and there is no need to beat a dead horse.
I disagree with aspects of your last line. Wrestling fans are picky, and can 100% be idiots lol, but I think what makes a promotion like AEW thrive is that they have such passionate fans, and I wouldn’t trade that for anything. I don’t want the majority of fans being apathetic towards the product (see TNA/Impact), I want fans who give a shit. Now, a byproduct of that is annoying behavior, sure, but its better than the alternative.
Are there some on here that bitch and moan about AEW because they have some weird issue with the promotion and try to tear it down every chance they get? Yup! and we all know who that is. People like that are going to be negative regardless. A year ago, AEW had an amazing thing going, I cant remember a single PPV that they did that was bad, I can’t say that now. My worry is that if we are looking at a spectrum and a year ago AEW was on one side and Raw was on the other, that AEW has definitely creeped a bit closer to Raw then where it was last year. Now, they are still ways away from the shit show that is Raw, don’t get me wrong, there creative and their storytelling is 10x better, but there are little things that I am seeing now that worry me because I don’t want to see it go in that direction.
Same, agree with every word you are saying here (except the billion dollar company thing as Khan have more resources than the McMahons if they choose to use them). With that said, AEW is in a tough spot right now, they can stay the same and be happy with their current numbers, or to attract more viewers they can do little things to grow/make more money but the problem is that a lot of those little things can unfortunately strip away what makes in so great. People forget that there is a reason why WWE do a lot of the things they do that we as hardcore fans don’t like. The third hour of Raw is the perfect example of this, it makes Raw unwatchable, but it makes them a shit load of money. I dont want AEW adding an extra hour on TBS, I dont want to see all these old WWE guys, I dont want them doing shitty celebrity matches (though the Shaq match was surprisingly good!) Sadly, for AEW to keep growing I think we are going to more and more of this, and I cant really blame then as they are a business trying to make money, but as a fan of them I’m not going to keep my mouth shut about it because some of the other hardcore AEW fans get mad at any constructive criticism.
Thats my take. If that makes me an idiot, cool, then I’m an idiot.
Somewhere along the way, people seemed to forget that Austin, Foley, Triple H, Undertaker, Goldust, and countless others, were WCW mid-carders and talents, that got over in WWE.
It’s almost like talent should travel and gain experience in different systems! Crazy idea…
The idea of a WWE lifer s only something that really started once WCW died. And understandably so. It’s two generations of so of fans removed from WCW, and the only mainstream wrestling they’ve ever known is WWE’s product and narrative.
Somehow it’s become engrained that if somebody’s first exposure on a national level comes from WWE, than that’s a knock against anybody else hiring them.
While I’m not a fan of Paul Wight or Christian, and nearly every former WWE talent within AEW - none of them are just doing the same character they were in WWE. Christian isn’t playing “Captain Charisma” for example, and I playing a very different role. Moxley isn’t Dean Ambrose. Jericho isn’t Y2J. Cody isn’t Stardust. Miro isn’t Rusev, Etc. The only character from outside is Sting, and he’s playing a legendary style character that he’s done for 25 years, and aside from WCW, doesn’t belong anywhere.
I still think that most of these ex-WWE stars are still being used to help raise up those from outside the system. The minute we’re getting a Christian vs Hardy or Paul Wight vs. Christian, then I think it’s an issue.
I don’t feel like in the history of TNA, the knock against the promotion has ever been the talent in the ring. It’s always been about the booking of that talent. And the difference between an ex-WWE guy joining AEW vs TNA is clear. 90% of the time in TNA, it was always them playing almost the identical character.
Of course. However, the main comparison is WWE is a publicly traded company, and far closer in structure to WCW / Turner of that time, where AEW is (despite the weather of the owner), and independently owned company, and can at the end of the day, produce whatever they choose.
Unless, and I really hope, it is at 6:05 PM on a Saturday evening.
Fair, I agree with all of this.
You make a lot of great points, however I think the situations are a bit different.
A lot of guys did come from WCW to WWF, but a lot of the WWF fans at the time didn’t know who they were. To use myself for example, I had never heard of Austin/HHH/Taker when they came in, I knew of Cactus from PWI, but I had never actually watched him wrestle, and Dustin I knew from his tag match at RR '91 so I just thought of him as a guy who went away and came back.
AEW on the other hand came to fruition in an era where WWE had ruled the market share on a mainstream level for nearly 20 years largely unopposed outside of a few years when TNA was at their peak. AEW came in with the mindset of “we are an alternative” so when they start to bring in old WWE guys, it begins to change the feel of the promotion. Now I can only speak for myself, but to be clear, I have zero issue with them bringing in former WWE guys that are in their prime, especially if they never got a fair shot (kind of like Taker, HHH, and Austin). I am hoping they bring in Andrade, I hope they bring in Aleister Black (if he gets released), I hope they bring in Zelina. My issue is more so with the guys that are way past their prime in Show, Christian, Hardy etc. I think its ok to have one legend (ie. Jericho) or even two if you wanted Jericho and Sting, but IMO the rest of those guys should be guys that are still young. All those WCW guys you listed had to have been in their 20’s/early 30’s, in the cases of Christian and Hardy we are talking late 40’s.
I did say in another thread that one issue is that there seems to be a WWE guy in each match, and I do believe that, but if they cut out the older guys and just cycled guys in and out, I think they would be fine.
The last point is I do think TNA caused this issue. TNA did this and failed, so now that AEW is bringing in WWE guys (in the case of Christian the exact same guy in the exact same way) its natural for people to react in a “ughhh this again” type way. I didnt hear anyone bashing AEW after they brought in Jericho, same for Moxley, same for FTR, because IMO these were the right guys. Where they made their mistake IMO was Hardy, Ryder (though that was short term), and then Christian/Big Show in the same week.
I do feel like a bunch of the backlash is because of Paul Wight / Christian hype and reveal / shitty explosion all took place within a very short window. And it definitely hurt them for the short term.
I think taking mid card guys works when
1.) you have your own top guys to work with those midcarders.
2.) They are presented very differently and well.
In AEW number 1 isn’t the case, and #2 has been hit and miss.
Lastly things look very different when promotions are considered equals rather than one being a start up. If the perception is more akin to a player in the nfl jumping from one team to another no one cares. When one jumps to the XFL it looks different especially if he isn’t a current top guy. Like if Daniel Bryan jumped to AEW no one would talk about “look at them taking WWE has been a.” No one said that with Moxley, Brodie Lee or Miro.
I’ll just say this as someone who isn’t terribly in love with AEW product and looking at people start to have gripes with what they’re putting out there: I think a lot of people had a pipe dream that this new and exciting thing they were watching was never going to have hiccups along the way, and that wasn’t reasonable. It’s why I laughed when people just assumed this show was going to gain a million viewers over the next year and catch up to Raw immediately. It’s why every time I hear “they should go to AEW because they’ll use them right!” I knew eventually that wouldn’t be an undefeated record." etc.
It’s fine for this to be happening. It’s fine for these discussions to be happening. It drives me crazy when we think giving them a clean sheet benefit of the doubt is the best manner in which to handle things because you don’t grow that way. It’s why I haven’t quite recovered from Tony Khan just lying his way through the post-Revolution sparkler fest - because I have an enormous rope for this company to learn and grow (and settle it on screen afterwards), but little for playing pretend. It isn’t constructive (and in many ways, is destructive when you’re asking fans to not just be passive observers of a free product).
One of the truly good things about the first 18 months of AEW is the patience fans have had for them and the genuinely optimistic view of everything that comes out, good or bad. I kinda wish that was the mindset when watching all companies, because I think there isn’t a huge bridge between mindset and finding ways to enjoy even the worst things [and I understand history and experience is why some don’t bother leaving it at the door, but it is a far more pleasant experience]. It’s why, outside of real life issues interceding into the product, I try to come on here and find the good things, because if I actually was made miserable by the shows like some people on here come off as, I can’t even imagine spending my time watching them.
So yeah, just an extremely long way of saying, we shouldn’t be afraid to keep a pristine view of AEW.
On the older wrestler/taking from WWE front - the juxtaposition of how some WCW guys worked in WWE and some didn’t comes from how they were introduced. Austin and HHH and Mick Foley worked because they weren’t just imports of what they were elsewhere. Chris Jericho walked in and was the same character and it took months for him to find his feet as he evolved. But when he did, he was successful.
He learned that lesson as he went to AEW. He appeared as Chris Jericho, but hardly anything was the same as his WWE characters. He even quickly evolved past his New Japan stuff. That’s where I feel like AEW is running into some trouble. They think people walking in and giving a “brass ring” speech is a character, or making them a big deal, or representing a new level this wrestler should be seen. But all it is is a promise. And you quickly see whether or not there’s a second level to their gripe. Moxley showed he knew exactly what WWE did right with him and what they did wrong with him and he never looked back. Apparently Miro thought where he was underutilized is as a comedy character and has struggled. Matt Hardy thought WWE had suffocated his creativity, but it’s pretty obvious at this point that Hardy’s ideas aren’t exactly winners.
AEW doesn’t need to avoid adding WWE run offs, but they need to treat them like they would treat any other signing and ask - what is going to be our winning spin on them? Because if it’s just a great wrestler being able to wrestle, you’ve got a million of those guys. If it’s just a former star to say you have more star power? Now you’ve got plenty of those too. If it’s a guy your only plan is to do “what WWE used to do well with them”, then anyone can do that (this would be my ‘Andrade is a far better fit elsewhere’ argument).
There’s no straight baseline answer for this, but I think they’ve skimped on asking themselves these questions before signing and utilizing these guys. And that’s where people are going to start making connections you don’t want as a product being marketed as an “alternative.”
I want to look at this from another angle. One problem is the “main” storyline and lack of a moving force, a protagonist, that would guide the viewer throughout the show. That protagonist is the main champion. And protagonist doesn’t mean a ‘good’ guy. It’s the person that drives the story’s momentum forward. At the risk of sounding like a total dweeb, anime often does a thing where protagonist takes a backseat for large chunks of story to focus on other characters - to build up the story’s midcard, if you will.
When I started watching wrestling, it was with Wrestlemania 31 where Seth stole the title. What hooked me after was his efforts to keep it, when everyone was gunning for him. Even if he was a heel, he was the ideal protagonist for RAW. AEW started with Jericho as their protagonist and so had a strong hook for you to watch.
When Rollins was champ, he employed every possible trick to hold on to the title and you waited for the tricks to run out. When Jericho was champ, he hid behind the Inner Circle, made fun of his opponents and in return was punked by Moxley, who he had no counter for. When Moxley was champ, he was the tough SOB, willing to take anything thrown his way which ultimately wore him out and led to his downfall.
Currently the driving force is the Elite drama and in my view, it’s slowly killing the show. Omega’s antics are fun to watch, but they are unfocused and aimless. He just showboats but really doesn’t do anything. He lacks a clear motivation. Young Bucks aren’t compelling Tag chimps and lack charisma. Good Brothers can fuck off. Is Moxley going for the title or what? His feud with Jericho for the title was much more focused. More importantly it had clarity of intentions and goals for both sides.
The story now is too insular and ‘for the boys’. Too meta. Too obscure for casual viewers. And it also kills other stories - Hangman, Private Party, Matt Hardy - they rely too much on BTE which becomes a crutch instead of helping.
I dont really think the angle you are looking at this from, makes much sense to be honest. You mention Rollins title reign after Wrestlemania and Jerichos AEW title reign, but both are very different. I see Kennys reign as much more like Rollins, where he has many possible challengers, even possibly guys that used to be his friend, similar to Rollins. You have the Death Triangle, Moxley, Kingston, Young Bucks, Hangman, Rich Swann, all of whom can potentially challenge for the title on an episode of Dynamite or a PPV.
There are issues that need to be worked on, this definitely is not one of them.
Interestingly I don’t feel like Kenny has many challengers right now. Of the guys you mentioned only Mox seems like a legitimate contender but we just did that program. No one in Death Triangle has been built up as a credible title contender, the Bucks are a tag team and neither seems like a singles threat to Kenny, Kingston is out “injured” and you you think he will return to win the title? Swan hasn’t appeared on Dynamite so that goes back to me watching additional programming to care, I mean that hasn’t really even been mentioned on AEW. Hangman isn’t in the picture right now, though I think long term he should take the belt off Kenny.
Part of the issue with Kenny and the Bucks right now is that they are feuding with each other and they hold titles. So you have your singles champion feuding with the tag champions, which means neither is feuding in their own division. Unless Kenny gets a partner to take the Tag belts off the Bucks or helps the good brothers do it, then it really feels like “belt collector” Kenny is a cool wrestling story but not a great Dynamite story. I feel like maybe the best thing that could happen right now is the Bucks betray Mox in their match and reunite with Kenny, then be a dominant faction lording it over the other factions.