Who hired and decided to use the rigging company? Whatever happens in that arena is Vince’s call. He is responsible. He wanted a dangerous stunt to be to his liking and that cost Owen his life.
Stunt was dumb, I wont defend Vince for that. However I just don’t see how Vince is more responsible then the rigging company when the rigging company are the one’s who used improper equipment when they were supposed to be experts. When you hire a high end company that has done similar stunts in the past for the likes of WCW, Elton John etc. you expect a certain level of quality. At the end of the day, someone who was supposed to be an expert used a piece of equipment that never should have been used. That person is the person who is ultimately responsible.
Take Vince out of the equation, please explain to me your defense of the rigging company?
You’re wrong it wasn’t the same company that WCW used. That company and other similar ones were too expensive or chose not to do it for safety reasons.
Vince went with a cheaper guy. Why else do you think Martha got $18 million in the wrongful death suit?
Read this for more - https://www.thedailybeast.com/owen-harts-widow-isnt-done-fighting-the-wwe-over-his-tragic-death-truth-has-always-been-my-defense
Please explain to me your defense of the rigging company?
I’m not defending them but Vince is the one who refused to listen to the advice of other rigging companies and decided to work with someone unqualified to do the stunt. That is his decision. The settlement basically proves he knows he was responsible
My question is how is he MORE responsible then the actual rigging company? Also, why are people not questioning how a rigging company is even legally allowed to be in business if they are not qualified to do the exact thing that they do? It would be one thing if Vince hired some guy under the table who wasnt certified to do such a thing, but from what I know this was not the case.
I’m not even trying to defend Vince, but I dont think he is ultimately responsible like you claim, I feel the rigging company is ultimately responsible.
They weren’t even a company, it was a guy they hired who wasn’t qualified but was cheaper and willing to do it. That was their call, completely Vince’s decision to move forward with him.
It’s the same thing if someone is injured or dies working on a movie or tv show - it is the productions responsibility.
And that doesn’t even bring about the fact that Vince chose to continue the show instead of bringing in the police to investigate the death ASAP
Then going back to my original point, if it was just “some guy” why didn’t the documentary go into that? This is what I was talking about in my original criticism, they didnt dive deep enough into exactly what happened.
Looking into it a bit just now, it seems that the person who did this was Bobby Talbert. What I would like to know, is how was this guy even legally allowed to perform such a stunt. I wish the documentary went into the lack of laws and certifications required to perform such a stunt (assuming WWE didnt go against any).
I’m not going to even get into your second paragraph, thats a loaded statement and its much more complicated then you are making it out to be.
Continuing the show was a mistake. You seem to think that I am defending Vince which is not my motivation all this. My main point was that i wanted more and I felt we didnt get enough.
It’s all in Martha’s book. The entire documentary was basically the TV version of her book. All that info is also in some of the police reports.
Basically at the time there were no laws covering that kind of safety - unlike WCW the WWF did not have a full time stunt coordinator employed.
The bottom line is it was Vince’s production and he is responsible for whatever happens. He was completely negligent in this situation
I just re-watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38HQHT8P
At 14:05 Martha says that the same company that did Sting, Elton John etc. were the same company that did Owen. Did they switch companies for Over the Edge? Above you told me that I was wrong for saying this.
Either way, I wish the documentary gave us more and for that I was disappointed. How much you are adding right now just illustrates how much this doc missed (if what you are saying is true, which previous posts of yours do force me to question).
The more and more I read, I feel that the true travesty is the lack of laws at the time in Missouri. Between that and Bobby Talber I can’t say that I feel Vince is “ultimately responsible”. Responsible to a degree, of course. But not ultimately responsible IMO.
Again, I’m not saying Vince did nothing wrong, but I just can’t say its ultimately on him. I feel that people reading this are going to think that I am defending WWE and Vince, I want to be crystal clear that I am not doing that. The stunt was stupid and Owen never should have been put in that position. The only point I am trying to make is that when it comes to things like this, you have to look at the entire picture and not blindly fixate on one entity. My issue with the doc is I felt that it looked at things in only one way. I wish it was two hours and showed exactly what transpired that allowed for this stupid stunt to take place.
He told WWE that but WWE did not do their homework on his claims -
According to Martha in her book, Talbert claimed the stunt they asked Owen to perform was similar to Sting’s stunt. But Ellis Edwards, who was the stunt coordinator for WCW, disputed that claim.
It all comes down to Vince warning the stunt to look like the way he wants it too. Nothing more, nothing less. He had a vision and wanted it done the way he wanted.
Why are you letting Talbert off the hook?
I feel like I keep having to repeat myself. I’m not defending Vince, but I blame the person who did the stunt more. Martha isnt going to sue Bobby Talbert, there is no money there. She isnt going to get 18 million from him. Instead she sued WWE and was rewarded for it, and to be honest I’m glad she did. She has done great things with that money and I love to see it when someone takes a tragedy and turns it into a positive.
It’s a workplace accident - the boss is always at fault. It should be pretty simple to understand
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I figured you would resort to an ad hominem attack at some point. I’m not going to go there with you.
Talbert screwed up - who hired him to do that job? Who was supposed to oversee the entire stunt? Who should be ensuring the safety of his employees? Who wanted a ridiculous stunt done on his show? Who continued the show instead of allowing police to investigate?
Vince
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Who used a clip meant for a sailboat that led to the death of a man? That was the decision that ultimately led to the death, therefore IMO that is who is ultimately responsible. Doesnt mean that Vince is off the hook and innocent, but the person who used the clip they had no business in using is the person who’s direct actions led to Owen’s death.
No the decision was forcing an employee to do a silly stunt and not listening to other coordinators who said the stunt wasn’t safe.
Vince didn’t care enough to make sure his employee was safe.
Yes, that was negligence. Never said it wasn’t. But that all could have happened, and things would have gone just fine if the company hired didnt use a clip they had no business using. That is why this happened, end of story, bottom line.
edit I want to apologize to the other posters and the mods, this bickering between myself and @TheBenjamin is getting ridiculous and we are going in circles. I’m sorry if this ruined the thread.
What?!?
He’s not CM Punk, but he’s never kept his mouth shut on things in WWE that he dislikes.
One thing I’m “disappointed” with this episode is it needed more on the lawsuit after the incident. I know it was done because of time constraints and it was designed to show the connection between Owen and his family, but if the lawsuit was covered a bit more, it would make this Vince response to the female reporter like a jolly fairytail.
Edit: Oh, Meltzer has posted an interview with Martha at the official f4w YouTube and the MP3 on their site for free:
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LOL, great clip with Vince. No rehearsals took place. But hey - let’s blame the rigging guy and not the people that hired him and forced an employee to do a stunt he wasn’t comfortable doing