RAR 10/29/18: John Cena replaced at Crown Jewel, Rollins-Ambrose follow-up

Originally published at https://www.postwrestling.com/2018/10/30/rar-10-29-18-cena-replaced-at-crown-jewel-rollins-ambrose-follow-up/


John Pollock and Wai Ting review WWE RAW 10/29/18:
Monday’s Raw featured DX, The Undertaker & Kane closing the show to promote their match at Crown Jewel, the return of Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman, the follow-up to the Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose program and a discussion on how the company used Roman Reigns’ leukemia diagnosis within the story. Plus, the announcement that Ronda Rousey will face Becky Lynch at the Survivor Series. Don’t forget to submit photos of your wrestling inspired Halloween costumes at www.facebook.com/POSTwrestling for your chance to win our final copy of “Creating the Mania” by Jon Robinson, courtesy of ECW Press. The winner will be announced next week. We also discuss TODAY’S TOP STORIES with Joey Janela’s Spring Break III selling out over WM Weekend, WM 35 tickets on sale in two weeks, John Cena removed from the Crown Jewel card, John Oliver continues to the cover Crown Jewel & more.

Plus Café feedback, comments & questions from the POST Wrestling Forum.

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I have a different view of Crown Jewel which places me clearly into the ‘ignorant’ camp.

I choose to view the event as something that entertains people in a troubled country. Yes, its going to be a propaganda show and that’s truly unfortunate…but why should we deny the good fans of this show a chance for some fun just because of the politics surrounding the event?

I think its fair to say that WWE is trying to showcase the more positive aspects of the country. While it might be hard to see that right now…this isn’t a place where every citizen is as malicious as Hitler was in world war 2.

Suppose there was a mass school shooting that took place in the U.S. in the weeks coming up to the 4th of July. Do you think we would spend weeks talking about the politics and how absolutely disgusting it is to be pro-American while putting on a show in the USA in the face of a recent tragedy? Something tells we wouldn’t reject WWE in this fictitious situation and would instead choose to look at celebration of the US as something that looks at the good…rather than glorifies the bad.

Don’t get me wrong…I’m not exactly thrilled that WWE is doing this. If I were in their position I definitely wouldn’t. 2 million profit is not worth the horrible PR and press especially after the homerun tv deals you’ve signed. This is an unnecessary risk that will lose them some fans due to boycott and rightfully so. But personally, I choose to not link WWE’s show with the promotion of the negative side of Saudi Arabia.


I will throw my hat into the ignorant pile by not knowing who is going to the show. Is the show being put on for the general public, or is it from a selected group by the Prince who are given the opportunity to purchase tickets? They may not actually be “good” fans. They might be good though, I don’t actually have any idea.

Before i started, i just want to say that i’ve been a big fan of John and Wai for many years and that i enjoyed listening to them at work almost everyday. But today at the end of the podcast, something that John said rub me the wrong way and i had to write about it. Personally, i’m one of those guys that always never going to see a situation as been either black or white, i’m a really easy going person that’S while i get outrage by stuff, i don’t let it run my life and i can easily separate real life from entertainment. So easy to day that, this whole crown jewel event doesn’T affect me the same way as a lot of folks. I’m actually looking forward to the event and actually understand why WWE is going through with it even with what’s going on right now because being put in the same position, i probably would have done the same thing.

But does that mean that i’m not outrage about the guy that was murderer, no because i i’m. Does that mean that because i defend the WWE for doing to show that i’m a bad person or have no conscience, No, it just make me a human being like everybody else. The one thing that i really hate more then everything in the world is people that are narrow minded and think that just because we think a certain way, we must be a bad person which is what i kinda got from John’s comment at the end of the show. Stuff like the journalist’s murder happens on a regular bases all around the world, just last weekend, their was another shooting in a synagogue in pittsburgh which in my opinion is ten times worst then the saudi thing, but nobodies is outrage by that. But that’s the PC World we live in right now and i’m sorry to see how society is going downhill because it. I respect John’s opinion on the whole event but i’m not agreeing with is position on it because i don’t think that it make somebody a bad person just because they approve or defend WWE’s decision to go anyway.

Are you insane? People are outraged by that event.

But how you draw a comparison between this and the Khashoggi murder is also nuts. The government of the United States has nothing to do with the shooting in that synagogue, the government of Saudi Arabia seems to have some connection to the murder of a journalist critical of said government.

How are these events similar?


By isolating this quote, you miss the point of the whole thing. The point wasn’t to compare one event to another is just to say that stuff like that happens on a regular bases around the world. Violence toward a individual or a group just for the sake of hate isn’t o.k. and killing peoples just because you don’t agree with their point of view isn’t o.k. just because you are the leader of the country. The fact is, we are going on speculation right now as far as the story goes because the full result of the investigation hasn’t gone public now. In my book violence is violence and hate crimes are hate crimes no matter who did it and that why theses event are similar in my book.

Please tell me more about these regular occurrences where a government kills and chops up a journalist’s body inside an embassy. Then tries to cover it, then explain he is missing, then say he got in a fistfight, then admit to wrongdoing.

It’s really easy to just ignore this show, it’s going to suck. The main event stuff with DX, Taker and Kane has been just horrific. Old guys pretending it’s 1998 - exactly the same stuff they used to make fun of WCW for but actually worse IMO.

Props to Cena and Bryan to telling WWE to fuck off, this will not be remembered well at all.


But, everyone is outraged by the synagogue murders. Nobody who is a decent person isn’t. The reason it may not appear to be relevant on the boards here is because it doesn’t affect wrestling, and the murder of the journalist directly affects wrestling.

You are welcome to watch the show and enjoy the show with all of the hypocrisy the WWE brings with it.

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All I have to say about this is go watch international news channel instead of just the CNN and fox news channel for news. You would see that this happen more often then you think it’s just that because it doesn’t affect American, it’s not covered.

As far as cena is concern, we don’t know why or who told him not to go but I would be surprise that the fact that is new movie is opening in a few weeks is part of the reason why he isn’t going because knowing cena, if it wasn’t for something like that, he would be the first to defend them with the decision, as far as Bryan is concern, until they confirm it on tv, I take this as the rumor it is. Even Meltzer doesn’t know if the story is true or not so for now, it’s pretty much in the rumor stage until something happens that confirm it.

Also, you want to talk about cover up, let use one of the biggest cover up of this century as a example. Let’s talk about Guantanamo bay, where the u.s tortured and even sometimes killed innocents peoples just because they we’re Muslim, yet everytime they we’re ask to comment about this, they would cover it up with another excuse.

The thing is, cover up and major awful crimes like this one happens a lot, but only when a American is involve that the news will cover it and make sure to embellish the story so that people’s that follow the story get more outrage. The news don’t really bother about having the whole story anymore, it’s all about the ratings and the money just like WWE, the more sensationalistic the story is, the better it is for them because It means more viewers.

Show me the “international news channel” stories about anything happening remotely close to what the Saudi’s did.

How is anyone embellishing this story at all?

And I agree about Guantanamo Bay, but what does that have to do with WWE? If they were putting a show on and talking about how great Guantanamo Bay is and saying how having shows on Guantanamo Bay will help move everything forward that would be different.

All governments do bad things, but WWE is allowing the Saudis to endorse themselves on their programming. It’s gross

But the thing is and i don’t want to argue this point forever, it’s not just WWE that endorse then, it’s pretty much every big business out there. I agree that i t doesn’t make it right but at the same time, you have to find a way to separate real life from entertainment.

Let’s face it, if it was any other wrestling company going to saudi arabia to do a PPV, mainstream media wouldn’t have single them out and fans wouldn’t care about the whole thing but because it’s WWE, it’s a big deal. Like i wrote before, why should they punish the Saudi fans for something their government did or didn’t do since nothing was proven? Really, If something like this would happen in another country and WWE was contractually obligated to do a big network special, would you want them to punish those fans because of it. Me personally i wouldn’t.

Yeah i do agree that this was a horrible act and you have the right to be outrage about WWE going but at the same time i have the right to agree that this was a horrible act and not be outrage that WWE is going. It really doesn’t make me a bad person because of i’ve had some life experience that make me see things another way and not just black and white like a lot of peoples see them because nothing is a simple as black or white and everything is a shade of gray, you just need to navigate this to find what the true story is in everything and not base your opinion on what’s been reported.

What’s the true story? It’s not a grey issue. They killed a journalist, tried to cover it up and got caught.

And this isnt the same as other big businesses, if this was simply a show then fine. WWE promoted Saudi Arabia as a magical place and hyped it up big time the last time they were there. That’s the issue I have with it. Other businesses don’t allow themselves to be used a commercial for a corrupt country.

Take the money and shut up. Dont try to sell anyone on it as anything other than that.

I feel like you are using False Analogy to justify your acceptance of this show. Your example of the Pittsburgh shooting is a false analogy because one was perpetrated by a citizen of the country, the other by the government of the country. If a country organized the Pittsburgh shooting, then no event should be held in that country. If the American govt had organized the Pittsburgh shooting, then the President would be ousted. So, since the Saudi Arabia gvmnt is obviously involved in the murder of the journalist, then it is more appropriate to avoid holding events there regardless of violence being prevalent everywhere. There is no argument here. Once the example you gave is dissected and found irrelevant, the only argument I see in your entire post is something like: It’s OK because I am not offended by it, and bad things happen everywhere. How does two bads make a good?

This story is very big because of the players involved, and more eyes are on it, so a stricter set of expectations are put on Companies. As a result, companies have responded accordingly, except for WWE who always falls short in the moral realm. You also mentioned that if another smaller wrestling company had an event in there, no one would say much. How does that matter?!!! People wouldn’t be as aware because people in general are not aware of smaller companies, but those around those smaller wrestling companies would be outraged still even if the coverage is not as big. Coverage should not matter, i fail to understand why even bring up that point.

So after all of this, what is your argument for supporting WWE on this? I did not find anything valid in any of your points.

Maybe i’m using False analogy to justify my acceptance of this show or maybe i just don’t care about the politics behind this show i don’t know, i’m not a psychologist. The thing is with me, i like to have proof on a story before getting making a final judgment on the whole thing, the news is really a whole lot of nothing right now. The story changed constantly and we don’T know what the real story is. Even the turkish government isn’t telling the whole truth about the whole thing so to me, i just give up and stop being outrage about anybody doing business with them. The other thing that made me more tolerant of WWE doing the show with the current climat that’S going on is that i know that when the report of the investigation will be reveal and the whole story will die, everybody that took the moral high grown to protect their image will go back and do business again with Saudi arabia, so at less WWE was upfront about it compare to all the other hypocrite that are pulling out now but in a couple of months when this whole thing is swept under the rug, will go back crawling to them and make deals with them like nothing happens.

So yes, i might be trying to justify my acceptance of the show, i don’t know, like i said i’m not a psychologist but i don’t think i i’m. i just think that i’m see so much horrible news like this one happening that i became immune to it and i’m able to separate the world of fiction from the real world without being offended when both world collides.

You know it’s a lot easier to just say “I don’t give a shit they chopped up that journalist. DX baby break it down!”

Why does someone just wanting to watch an entertainment show and enjoy it, mean that they dont give a shit about a murder?

Not all of us can just sit here and make up fake feelings. None of us want to see anyone murdered, but I’m not and I’m sure @psykohurricane is not going to sit around and pretend to act like we’re so upset, that we cant enjoy the show.

I for one am very much looking forward to Crown Jewel. I actually think it will be a pretty decent show and I will sit down at 12 noon on Friday and I will enjoy the show and I wont think for a second about the politics behind it, whether their are ads on the show promoting Saudi Arabia or not. I can tune out of those if I choose to and when the show is over, if I choose to follow the politics closer, I’ll do that seperate from the WWE.


Your ability to separate the show and the real world, and thus be able to enjoy the show is good. I am on your side on that ( I do the same when watching Chris Benoit matches from the past). I think you saying that you are able to separate the two, and thus enjoy the show and not feel angry, is really all you need to explain why you have no issue when enjoying Crown Jewel. I think that is your main point which is correct.

Some of the push back you are receiving from the comment section, including me, is about the logic that you used to further justify the WWE. You don’t need to justify your enjoyment of Crown Jewel past a “I can separate the two”. But trying harder to explain why WWE is not on the wrong is a different stretch, I don’t think you need to do that because they indeed ARE in the wrong. Your point on needing full proof is valid, but this case is as obvious as it gets, it is not as muddy as other cases. The change in the story was only from Saudi Arabia itself, Turkey has been pretty consistent with their story, only adding more details as they came along, that is why it is obvious Saudis were involved. On your point of other companies going back to business with bad parties after the outrage is gone, again you are right, but that is using some of the logic we see nowadays of two wrongs make a right, which is not valid. Only because some companies are despicable doesn’t make WWE any less despicable. Now, I would agree with you saying that “at east they are honest” and not just pretending to leave their partnership only to come back once the firs has subsided, but they did not do that. They did not say “There is just too much money involved and we know this won’t be an issue once the outrage is gone”, they used some BS reason of “other companies are still working with them” and refused to take questions on the investor call, which is not honest at all. They could not even own their decision.

Again, you are cool for being able to enjoy the show, but don’t try to justify the unjustifiable when you don’t need to, you are only going to receive comments from people pointing out the flaw in the logic.

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No John Cena…Cancel this show.

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The funniest thing is that at first, I didn’t even try to defend wwe for their decision but for some reason, somebody took one of my comment out of context and That’s how the whole thing started. The whole point of my original comment was more about how I don’t agree that just because you are able to enjoy the show without taken the politics into account made you a bad person or somebody without any moral like John’s mention at the end of the podcast. That was the point of the original post and it got turn into me defending the wwe for their decision.

Did you watch the Greatest Royal Rumble? The front row were all rich Saudi prince assholes whose backs were to the ring and were using the event to schmooze and show off. They cherry picked shots of women and famillies. Single guys were not allowed to buy good seats because the prince wanted to promote famillies. You didnt buy a soecific seat but an area and they carefully chose where you sat.

That being said im sure like everywhere there were some genuine fans and good people who enjoyed that show but the overall propaganda and hypocrisy is disgusting.

Im sure they will tone down the vision 2030 stuff this time. If there is another psa about women fucking driving I’m out; not just of Crown Jewel but WWE (Ill always watch wrestling but maybe not wwe). Those spots last time were cringe and would be offensive now showing how “progressive” the crown prince is.