Yes I get it. Everything you say makes sense. I get the baseball hall of fame vs the hall of very good in other sports.
I just look at the end result - if Ishii is getting into the hall of fame over Randy Orrin, Edge, Sting and Roman (a guy who literally has never won the world title or drawn anything) then someone needs to look at this and saw “it’s not about just match quality. The system needs fixing”
On no planet is Ishii a more hall of fame worthy candidate than Randy Orton.
Match quality is not that important.
This is like the baseball Hall of Fame, focussing on a useless statistic that doesn’t equate to wins. imagine they just focussed on a guy who happened to hit the ball really far, but didn’t really focus on the number home runs he had just the distance. He wouldn’t let someone in to Hall of Fame because fans clapped because he hit the ball really far. Look at his overall impact on the game
Unless you go entirely kayfabe and induct wrestlers based solely on titles and wins, there will never be a truly objective way to have a pro wrestling Hall of Fame.
Add in the fact that journalists and wrestlers are collectively two of the pettiest groups of people in the world, and there will always be both baffling snubs and baffling inductions.
That’s not the point. Of course they belong in the Hall of Fame but how did edge and Randy Orton and CM punk and Roman reigns not get into the Hall of Fame yet you have Nakamura and Ishii get in? . Obviously something is wrong.
I have no issue with Suzuki and enjoy it too but it’s clear he has a huge Japanese bias even though if you pointed out to him he’ll say you don’t read his stuff and attack you. Twitter, Dave is a bit of a personality if you follow him.
He attends wrestle kingdom but doesn’t attend wrestlemania because he complains wrestlemania is too long. yet he’s going to get on a long flight and attend a similar length show and then it’s not an issue. He didn’t even rate Shawn Michaels and undertakers matches at five star get gave a throw away useless Kenny omega vs Goto match from G1 five stars( WH Park went off on this if you remember)
. Like which match has a more lasting impact. Look at his match rating for the rock versus Hulk hogan and you get an idea of what he likes and what he doesn’t like.
The issue is just he’s the guy running this and like I said there’s good people like John who will vote their own mind and then there’s morons who just want to carry favour with him because he’s Dave and I’m sure a hero to a lot of them. So whatever he says influences what people who vote. And the Hall of fame reflects that.
It’s just like saying the WWE Hall of Fame is influenced by Vince McMahon. Of course it is he decide to goes in.
The same thing here, admittedly, this one is probably less prone to bias it because there’s more voters, but in the end there still bias there
Analogies are tricky (mine included). But again, this doesn’t say what you’re intending for it to say.
The problem with trying to include an all-encompassing Hall of Fame is the necessity to ensure you’re covering the all-encompassing wrestling landscape.
Randy Orton is not in competition with Tomohiro Ishii. As such, the minute you try to draw any comparisons between them, you’ve failed the exercise. Perhaps it’s better to view it as a series of Halls of Fame under one umbrella covering which is the Wrestling Observer as a publication.
I’m not comparing Hayley Wickenheiser to Keith Tkachuk - equally, I’m not comparing Randy Orton to Tomohiro Ishii.
Kurt Angle in 2004 vs. Randy Orton today - that’s a debate we can have. However, how much of an issue can we have when the votes fall where the votes fall. It’s not one man’s perspective that determines if they get in. Regardless if that man is Dave Meltzer, or Dr Alex Patel. If you don’t have the votes, you don’t have the votes.
For the record, Randy Orton has generally been nothing but a perpetual bore to me. I may have hated Cena but at least I cared. (I have my own bug bears in the uninducted pile myself: Edge and Punk among them - but they need the votes)
However, with Healey, you could totally argue that she has more accomplishments and Keith.
On on off note - she’s a doctor and I know her quite well. She did some training with me
She’s won multiple gold medals and was the face of that sport. She competed with men for a bit. She was far and away the best of her generation.
I’m not comparing Okada versus edge or CM punk, or Roman reigns. Here is a guy who won titles and drew money. Maybe not as much or as big an international star - but again no issue.
But when you look at Ishii, a guy who literally has never won a world title or drawn fans but has great matches and you throw him in over those guys it’s weird.
I guess I get you can there are multiple different Hall of Fame‘s, but it’s still one umbrella in the end. And while I can understand, Healey, or Okada, or someone like that getting in over perhaps someone who’s technically better from the US - I get why they’re getting in. They were so valuable to the individual organizations. How valuable is Ishii if you’re never gonna even put the world title on him?
I hear your comment regarding Hayley Wickenheiser’s international success (I might pivot and say only 2 teams really ever matter in that sport so she’s a very big fish in the smallest pond in Olympic sport)
There seems to be a legitimate concern for you regarding either Dave Meltzer or New Japan in general. Tomohiro Ishii’s place in the Hall of Fame isn’t taking away a place from Randy Orton or Edge and Taker/Shawn wasn’t stopped from a 5 star rating because of Omega/Goto. Just like Hayley Wickeheiser’s presence hasn’t taken a spot away from Keith Tkachuk One has no relevance on the other. You keep using the word ‘over’ but there’s never a moment where one is compared to the other. So Ishii isn’t being chosen over any of the North American based wrestlers we’ve discussed here.
Yes he’s not - but maybe he should have more spots for NA and less for Japan? Or something else to balance it out. While one isn’t getting in over another one being in while another isn’t should have one look at how selections are made.
And now we’re back to the legitimacy of the voting process but I think we’re better looking at how Kurt Angle got in back in 2004 and Chris Benoit in 2003 vs Randy Orton/Edge today.
But if the votes don’t go the way we want that’s the will of the voters and doesn’t by design means the methodology is flawed.
However my main point was that most wrestling fans/journalists tend to view WWE hall of fame as Vince’s HOF and the WON one as legit.
I was pointing out
WON is unlikely to be as big an Honor for wrestlers (outside of someone like Omega types) as they get zero money, zero ceremony or zero rings etc for making it. They get a line in a newsletter people have to pay to read. It’s not the same as the WWE HOF or any other HOF
The WON HOF is heavily influenced by what Dave likes - a lot of Japanese stuff
There are major omissions (like the WWE one) here as wel such as Edge and Orton and Roman
So I’m just saying WON has its own issues even if it is more “legit”
And to make it clear I’m not anti Dave - I subscribe and have spoken to him multiple times and I respect him. He’s an amazing historian and is generally very smart and good person.
However, I know he has bias and I can see it, I know the WON Hall of Fame is not perfect, and I’m less than enamoured with how he goes after people on Twitter.
Obviously The Rock, HHH, Cena and various McMahons will be in someday. But among those who it’s reasonable to say may not get in one day: I’ve got Demolition as the biggest miss. And now that Davey Boy is in, I’d imagine Dynamite won’t be featured (maybe “veteran’s committee” someday).
I’m also assuming guys like Rick Martel, Jacques Rougeau, Haku, Barbarian and Mike Rotunda will be fillers (not that they’re not deserving) some year as long as they’re still alive. They’re all certainly on par with some current inductees.
Hunter is in, its just as a member of DX not solo (which is dumb lol that you can be inducted 2-3 times lol. Vince refuses to go in, so I imagine it will be the year he dies as long as there is no new sandal at that time.
They got way behind on those guys back in the 90s when they didn’t own WCW and the footage from a bunch of the territories. they’ve done an OK, job, playing catch-up, especially since they started doing the “veterans committee“ inductees. But it sucks that a lot of those guys died or got very old/sick without getting a proper induction, not to mention the chance to cash in on being a “legend“ under the WWE umbrella.
From a public relations perspective, they got lucky that they inducted him when they did. Imagine if President Trump wasn’t yet in the Hall of Fame in 2016. WWE would have had half of their American audience rallying to get him in and the other half threatening to boycott if they do.
I enjoy the Observer Hall of Fame, look through who’s nominated, who would I personally vote for, who’s nominated I don’t know I can look into. WWE hall of fame does nothing for me honestly, haven’t watched the full event in a few years.
