@MarkP@RTH75 While I agree with 95% of what you two are saying, and I disagree with like 95% of what @Bdubz is saying, the one thing I do think you two are wrong about is this notion that casual wrestling fans dont exist.
I base this on a couple things. First, and I 100% admit this is anecdotal, I know a ton. They were huge fans in the 90’s/00’s, lost interest and now they only check it out from time to time, they usually watch Rumble and Mania, and if a show comes to town, they may take their kids. The age range of these people (that I know) is 35-45. They will watch Raw or SD if its on and they are free, but they dont make a point of watching it. The dont watch AEW.
Maybe AEW doesnt have many casual fans, but WWE 100% does. Think about this, if a guy like Buddy Murphy debuts on Dynamite, pretty much everyone is going to know who he is. Now, lets say a guy like Warlow debuted on a random WWE Raw in Greenville South Carolina, I think its crickets because these shows are usually filled with a causal audience.
Now, @Bdubz theory of how its bad to have Easter eggs or little inside things being said for the hardcodes, it doesnt piss off casuals. If the entire show was built around it, then sure. But fans dont get mad that they dont understand everything.
Exactly - “casual fans” are a myth from people stuck in the 80s and 90s. WWE drove most of those people off so right now the best bet is to super serve your hardcore fans and hope they recruit others to get into the product.
AEW needs to focus on serving those people and younger people and they will be fine.
Ok, I don’t mean that there is absolutely NO casual fans anymore. Which, obviously is untrue. But most corporations tend to court the more “hardcore” dedicated fan base now. The fans that are willing to buy tickets and merchandise. The fans that will buy products that are advertised within the body of the show. Someone who has the tv on in the background while CSI happens to be on aren’t likely to pay attention to the commercial spots that appear.
Yes, lapsed fans definitely exist.
WWE has generational fans who dip in and out. Simply due to their brand awareness and marketplace share.
However, soon enough, those fans are going to be gone. We’ve discussed elsewhere about the diminishing returns of legends, etc.
I think the idea that long term, pursuing these fans as something they need - is shortsighted. And, the idea of appeasing these fans who potentially represent 1% of your audience, makes absolutely no sense. Rather than retaining and satisfying your actual viewers.
Trying to pander to the widest possible audience, while alienating the vast majority of your viewers, in an effort to attract a very specific non-existent type of viewer, is absurd. But according to some people, it’s what I desperately needed??
Bdubz has made the same arguments since October 2019 I feel. The goalposts always change for what AEW’s success is. And no matter what, in his mind they’ll never be product worth praising.
And even the fact that Tony has essentially saved ROH from an existence of remaining as cheap programing for Sinclair, with likely plans to celebrate its history on a larger scale than ever, is not reason to give credit.
You are totally right - a WWE superstar debuting in AEW will be known to most of the audience. Almost everyone who watches AEW is aware of WWE and what happens there even if they don’t watch it.
The opposite we can only guess isn’t true. However no major stars have jumped. Cody will be a decent gauge but he was a former WWE talent. Similar to Mox or CM Punk or Jericho they would all get reactions when they debut. However we don’t know if an AEW only talent like MJF would debut to a massive reaction.
My guess is that the majority of vocal WWE fans attending shows are aware of AEW as well. But we won’t know until a major star jumps.
As for the argument that most people don’t care about Suzuki his song got a huge reaction and people knew who he was. In WWE they may not but most AEW fans know the major NJPW stars.
For instance if Omega ever became champ again you can bet Okada confronting him would get a massive reaction
This is a major point.
And even if you didn’t know who he was - as a viewer, seeing the audience going nuts for the guy and signing along to his entrance - makes any viewer at home likely at least have their curiosity piqued.
I have a hard time thinking anybody watched it - saw how much fun the audience had, heard how major the announcers were putting it over, and seeing how Moxley was responding in ring - and be turned off by it.
100% agree. This goes back to my Flair/'92 argument. I didnt know who he was, but the announcers (especially Heenen) and the crowd made him feel like a star pretty much instantly.
To be fair, I do think that the major stars from AEW would get a reaction, what Im saying is I dont think the low/mid card performers would if they debuted in WWE unless it was a traveling crowd (ie. Raw after mania crowd). While in AEW, even a guy like Buddy Murphy got a big reaction, and you don’t get much lower on the card in WWE then that (and that’s nothing against Murphy).
Correction, “how wrestling has been promoted by most companies” although I accept due to WWE’s size it has by far had the greatest influence and therefore responsibility for doing so.
Alex, I’m perplexed as how you continue to make my point whilst at the same time completely miss the point.
For the kind of people that like that sort of thing, that’s the kind of thing those people like. Of course he got a reaction from AEW fans.
My point is about trying to grow the audience. If Tony and Warner Media are happy with the sub 1 million average and aren’t interested in trying to grow it substantially then it’s all good. They are doing a sterling job.
Increase in average prime time television ratings, year over year.
Rampage ratings have plateaued at a 500K average for 10PM on Fridays, but are still usually a top 10 Cable show, and by all clear measures, Time Warner are very pleased.
I guess that depends on your definition of success but I would say it is successful (I think they either are profitable or would be profitable if not for the games division?)
What I am saying is they have the tools and resources to be much more successful but can’t seem to get out of their own way.
They are frequently the number on show on Cable for their night. Is that not successful?
You’re trying to act like in order to be a success they need to achieve Television ratings that don’t exist any more for wrestling. The fragmenting of the media landscape has ensured this over the last twenty years.
Also, I love how you ignore points made against your argument, and just keep on coming at most of us like we’re all crazy and missing some obvious point.
This is a false equivalency. You watch real sports because you support a team, you don’t watch for the individual. Wrestling on the other hand is all about the individuals.
If what would draw the general public/casual fans back is overly choreographed gymnastics then wrestling would be at an all time high in terms of popularity as the athleticism has never been better.
But it is abundantly clear that is not the case. It’s the booking (realistic struggles, not obvious cooperation) but without a shadow of a doubt, primarily the characters. And that’s the main issue these days. When I hear talk about this guy or that guy could draw money if only he was booked better, in most instances no they couldn’t. As an example, as athletic as Ricochet is, he’ll never be a star because he’s got very little personality.
Can you provide citations for all but bullet point 3 please and over what period you are assessing.
Assuming these are true, then these are successes (although only if actually increasing the profitability which given the huge roster now may not be the case) but not the KPI I set when asked what I would consider success.
