No, I’m saying if you don’t know about the tree falling over, you can’t say you heard it fall over.
You seem to be having a hard time understanding the concept of not knowing something.
Rapists existing doesn’t mean you have right to call anyone a rapist.
You are wasting your time. Breng77 isn’t interested in justice. It’s vengeance he is after.
Nope you are saying it doesn’t make a sound if you think you aren’t protecting rapists by Requiring Indisputable proof. You make their actions free from consequences.
As I said for legal action I agree. But if a number of women (or even one with graphic detail.) accuse someone of rape. I may not call him a rapist, but I’m certainly if I’m his employer take some action. I also don’t need to call him a rapist to think he is at least an abusive scumbag.
Define justice? I’m fine with prosecuting women who make false allegations if you can indisputably prove that they have lied. I also think the law should require proof. I just think undesirable actions should have social consequences attached to them in order to deter them from occurring. Largely in our society this is untrue for sexual assault.
I also have no need for vengeance, I’m not a victim. I am for an economic view of this where negative social consequences lead to right actions.
Looks like we’re just going round in circles here and it’s past 1am where I am…
I’ll just make this final, and some would say extremely controversial, point of hoping this leads to a positive in change in how people behave and I hope all the innocent people, whether they’re a part of the accusers or the accused, don’t have their careers or lives negatively affected because of this.
I would wish for that too, unfortunately I’m not naive enough to think it actually happens.
I didnt think you did. Being a blogger isn’t a bad thing, but it implies you are a person who just writes opinions down and don’t necessarily have any credentials. John and Wai run a media outlet. I get what you meant though.
I am not sure why this is turning into a “protect the falsely accused” or “stop rapists”, pick a side.
This reminds me of some of the things posted in the AJ thread, like I said in there, this type of talk just divides people on the issue and takes focus away from where it should be. Look at the #METOO movement, it started out so strong, then it suffered a huge backlash which hurt the movement.
Personally I want to live in a world where rapists are accountable for their actions AND people falsely accused get their due process.
For those dismissing due process, look around the world, when you take due process away from a society the ramifications are awful and lead to a much much worse society.
Don’t forget about Ashley Massaro - raped while working for WWE on a military base and then told not to talk about it. Now she’s dead. WWE and Vince have soooo many skeletons in the closet
I’m not so sure #metoo had that much backlash outside of the people that wanted to detract it from the beginning.
While I certainly don’t want to see anyone unjustly punished for a false accusation, it is important to remember false allegations are rare and pales in comparison to the number of victims that have never had justice.
People are justifiably really fucking angry and waking up to the culture we’ve been living in. You can be mad and the “twitter mob” but remember to also be mad at the abusers, the justice system, and the society that created that anger.
I’m not entirely sure where the middle ground is, and change takes time, but the end game for everyone is drastically reducing sexual assaults. This will only happen when men are held accountable, and this will only happen women feel comfortable and SAFE reporting their abuse,
It’s insane that what you said might actually be considered controversial…
I agree with the majority of what you are saying, please don’t misinterpret me.
Based on what you are saying, I can tell your heart is in the right place and we are on the same page for the most part, however I think you are pretty wrong about #METOO not having a backlash. For the record, I’m not saying this based on my personal feelings, I’m saying this based on articles and mainly studies in academic journals that I have read.
One aspect of the backlash that many people don’t know about is that many woman had a hard time finding jobs after the initial wave of the #METOO movement, and studies showed that employers were hesitant to hire woman based on the fear of being falsely accused and woman had a harder time in the work place with male co-oworkers avoiding them. Again, to be crystal clear, I am not saying I felt this way, I’m talking about what the unfortunate reality out there was. I don’t want to see a situation in the wrestling industry where men are falsely accused, and then promoters stop booking woman which then hurts women within the industry.
I just did a quick google search and a ton of articles have popped up. Now I didnt read these particular artles, I just posted to prove that I didnt just make this up.
Look, you are 100% correct when you say that false accusations pale in comparison to the number of victims who have never had justice. This is true, however you need to look at what is best for society and most importantly women moving forward when evaluating the most efficient way as a society to move forward. If you are basing your opinions on pure anger and revenge, I’m sorry but society unfortunately usually doesn’t benefit.
First and foremost, you NEED to have a culture where women can come forward and report these wrong doing without the fear of blacklash. This is something that has haunted women for decades and is not ok.
We need to encourage women to report these incidents right away (But let me be very clear, NOT SHAME THEM when they don’t), as the sooner an assault is reported, the easier it is for authorities to convict the accused. The stigma of reporting these things needs to disappear.
We also need due process to be followed, like I said above studies show the long term negative effects these things tend to have on women when not handled properly.
I never once said twitter mob mentality of guilty before proven innocent was the right way to go about things, I’m saying I understand how it’s gotten there.
And I appreciate you posting those articles but you didn’t post things I didn’t already know (I have a bit more foundation than “my heart being in the right place”) I work in a male dominated industry and I’ve seen these types of discussions first hand.
But let’s be clear, blaming #metoo for employers not hiring women is victim blaming at its core. Employers being reluctant to hire women, instead of changing the culture and standards within their organization, is the fault of THEM, not #metoo, and that’s one of the things that will hopefully progress as well.
(I should also note I’m not trying to argue with anyone, so if anything I say comes off as salty, it’s not meant to)
Please dont take my “heart” comment in a condescending way, truly wasn’t meant that way. I dont think you are lacking in foundation. You said that you didnt think there was a backlash so I was trying to show there was.
I’m not personally blaming #METOO for anything, I think it’s a great movement and I have followed it very closely, been an advocate, and read many studies about it because of this very reason.
I think you are misinterpreting what I said. Granted, I didnt read all those articles, so maybe one of them blamed #METOO, if so, my fault. Its not the fault of #METOO that employers were not hiring women, but IMO (and I could be wrong) it was a bi-product of the idea that if a person is accused of sexual assault, regardless of whether they are guilty or not guilty they will loose everything without due process instantly. Blaming the victim would be blaming the women who were assaulted, speaking for myself, I am not doing that. If I am blaming anyone, it’s the people who jump on social media and demand that someone be fired immediately without any investigation, this type of mentality creates the issues that women have to deal with now which is horrible and they do not deserve.
I acknowledge that you didn’t condone the Twitter behavior of some. I actually think you and I are pretty much on the same page even if it may seem like we are arguing.
I can’t stress how much I think blaming the victim is pure and utter bullshit, and I want everyone who reads anything I say to understand that I am not implying that in any way. I am very passionate about this subject and it is very important to me that people understand what I am actually saying.
Hey. We’re for sure on the same page for the most part. Its important to keep the conversation going and to continue to learn and grow.
I wasnt trying to single you out by any means, but I have an issue with the narrative that #metoo is the cause of women not being hired or that men don’t want to talk to women because of #metoo when the issue is clearly the men in charge or the men that are so paranoid they can’t talk to women with respect that they’d rather avoid them. That’s not a backlash on #metoo, it’s an exposure of the society we live in. You probably agree with this, but again I think keeping with the narrative that it’s a backlash on #metoo is problematic. (We could just disagree on simple semantics, but they matter)
One other thing I’ll say, is I’m not particularly worried about this happening in independent wrestling. We (society) has come along way over the last decade, and any promotion not hiring women because of this would be totally tone deaf an out of touch.
It’s worth noting that, depending on the country you’re in, the rate of “false” (ie. unfounded) rape accusations is between 2-8%.
So kindly fuck off with this notion that false accusations are rife and that we shouldn’t do anything to change wrestling’s culture.
Agreed, I think we are mostly on the same page and I do believe its mostly semantics which are important. Its a very sensitive subject, but it is good to have a discussion.
We do have different perspectives work wise which I think is a cool thing as far as the discussion goes. You said you worked in a male dominated industry, I’m literally the opposite as I work with mostly all women. My place of work has about 40 employees, and only two of us are men. I also come from a family where the extended family is about 80% women, so if I’m being honest, I may be a bit oblivious to the level of misogyny out there as the majority of the time I discuss this matter it is with women.
I have never had any fears that a women would wrongfully accuse me of anything, the way I look at it, if you treat woman with respect and like equals (which they are) you shouldn’t be afraid of anything. However, I do feel that in the rare occurrence that a person was falsely accused, that they would be granted due process. History has shown that in societies where due process is not a thing, its not a better place to live.
That statistic sounds about right. The culture needs to change, I agree with that 100%.
If we go with that stat, yesterday 95 men were accused, so if it follows what you are saying about 4-8 men accused yesterday were innocent and 87-95 are guilty. I would like due process to play out where those 87-95 have to pay a consequence, while the 4-8 are able to clear their name.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting justice to play out as it should (not that you are implying otherwise).
What fuck is wrong with you? You might have been on twitter all day insulting anyone that doesn’t go “believe all women, all the time” but if you’re going to enter a discussion on a forum, try and be less of a dickhead or just stick to twitter getting validation from airheads.
As for your point, I didn’t say false accusations are rife so stop pretending I did just so you can pretend you have a point. The rate of false accusations is low, just like the rate of conviction is low. It’s down to the fact that it’s difficult to determine what happened in a he said/she said scenario. The stats can be framed either way so stop being a dumbass. Only thing the stats prove is that it’s difficult to prove what happened either way which means that throwing you support 100% in one direction regardless of what knowledge you have isn’t supported by stats. Try analysing the stats instead of just looking at the framing of the stats. I also don’t care if it’s less than 1%, you still treat every case based on its own merits rather than stats from previous cases.
“The stats say only a few cases result in it being a false accusation so let’s just go ahead and say he’s guilt without looking at anything”
“The stats also say only a few cases result in a conviction so let’s just let this guy go without looking at anything”
You see how that works? But as I said, you judge each case on its own merit. I didn’t know the concept of trying to get things right before going after someone was so controversial…
Try and actually read as well. I don’t think the people making the allegations should be attacked and I don’t doubt that overall there’s most likely an issue just like there is in every industry. Wrestling definitely isn’t going to be immune from it.
The point being made is that when you’re a neutral party and you actually care about specific allegations then you try to figure things out instead of going “don’t say anything, just attack the person being accused”. I also never said that nothing should change, you’re just lying just so you can pretend you have a point. You being desperate to attack people is down to you but I prefer to take a more saner, fairer approach because we’re in a position where we don’t know what’s what. So how about you kindly fuck off?
It was a good discussion until you showed up lying about what people have supposedly said.